New Western Cape Liquor Bill
Ok, so I came across a Facebook Group which is inviting people to join and stand up against a new Western Cape Liquor Bill, stating that clubs and bars will close @ 2am, as well as restaurants not being able to sell liquor after 9PM.
Now, judge me if you want, but I’m all for Clubs closing around 2am, perhaps closer to 3am would be more idea – I think it’s those places which stay open incredibly late and serve alcohol that produce the drunken drivers and bar fights, so I’m not supporting that, because I think it’s a good idea.
As far as restaurants not selling liquor after 9pm, well, I don’t quite support this. Perhaps they need to rethink this and allow liquor sales until as, midnight or why not just 2am like the clubs – That would make more sense to me don’t you think?
The link the Facebook group is here and I’ll be emailing Kevin, the owner of the group to ask for more information and specific details.
Christopher is the founder of iMod - Most of his time is spent building websites and pushing the limits with Search Engine Optimization. You can follow him on Twitter @ChristopherM
Chris M has written: 4156 posts.
Jan 20th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
2AM is a tad early. But I always wonder – how is a facebook group going to make any difference? You get 1000 people to click on join and then what?
Jan 20th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Chris I have to agree with you. The problem is worse in Ireland than in South Africa. They really struggle to control this. Together with this should be stricter laws for drunken and disorderly behaviour as well. Restaurants I think is a bit early for 9.
Jan 20th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Mike imagine if my 1200 members join along with the other twenty odd clubs with their 1200 odd followers who all mail their friends and before long you will have a hundred thousand people protesting and signing petitions.
Hi Chris in answer
This was mailed to me earlier which basically covers what the Group is about. The new Liquor bill is actually flawed in as much as it reduces late nite drinking when there are less people out and about and allows you to legally buy alcohol on a sunday when people buy booze to go to a braai then drive home with kids and wife in the car in a drunken state.
Iheard about the changes through the ETV late news last night which my colleague watched and reported to me this morning. Since then I have been creating groups inviting people in the business and researching all the facts.
Tomorrow the journo who researched the background will get in touch to give me some info for the group.
I understand that some people would like to have drinking spots close earlier but the reality in our business is that most people drink their fill between 11pm and 2am. our sales tail off through the next 2 hours to 4am. We like to be open for the people who like to dance as long as they can.
Capetonians are by nature late night revellers whereas Gautengers go out early and return early.
Jan 20th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
This is the bill in it’s basic form.
From: “Zayd Minty”
Date: 20 January 2009 16:10:31
Subject: FW: Liquor Act
From: Mo Hendricks [mailto:mo@capetowncid.co.za]
Sent: 20 January 2009 15:26
To: Zayd Minty
Subject: Liquor Act
As discussed in the Projects meetings attached find the New Liquor Act.
The following is a summary of how the Act has been amended:
1. It is now an offence to sell alcohol to a person who you suspect will resell the liquor and such person is not licensed. This is where all the shebeen are being closed as they do not have licenses and no longer have access to purchase liquor legally.
2. It is an offence to purchase alcohol from an unlicensed person thereby making the customer also guilty of an offence
3. An offence to allow drug dealing, brothel activities, and other criminality on the premises.
4. Consuming alcohol in a parked vehicle is now an offence even if a passenger (the driver of said vehicle will also be held responsible) This section of the Act also prohibits liquor contained in an open container to be in a motor vehicle while on a public road.
5. No petrol station is allowed to sell alcohol
6. Licenses cannot be issued to shebeens in residential areas
7. The most important part of the Act is that the Act gives Municipalities the right to introduce their own liquor trading hours failing which the hours prescribed in the Act will apply.
The City of Cape Town has drafted its own new By Law detailing the new Liquor Trading hours. The proposed changes are as follows:
1. Residential
Guest houses, B&B’s hotels, pubs, taverns, clubs, places of entertainment and theatres 11h00 – 21h00
2. Local Business area / nodes (Including mixed use areas)
Guest houses, B&B’s hotels, pubs, taverns, clubs, places of entertainment and theatres 11h00 – 23h00
Supermarkets 09h00 – 18h00
3. General Business nodes / District
Guest houses, B&B’s hotels, pubs, taverns, clubs, places of entertainment and theatres 11h00 – 02h00 the next day
Supermarkets and liquor stores 09h00 – 18h00 (current time 08h00 – 20h00)
4. Industrial Areas
Guest houses, B&B’s hotels, pubs, taverns, clubs, places of entertainment and theatres 11h00 – 02h00 next day
Supermarkets 09h00 – 18h00
5. Agricultural and Rural
Wine farms and restaurants and tourists facilities off consumption 09h00 – 18h00
Wine farms and restaurants and tourists facilities on consumption 11h00 – 00h00
6. Ad Hoc Locations
Sports Clubs amenity facilities and community centre 11h00 – 22h00
Special Events temporary licenses 11h00 – 00h00
The draft By Law is expected to be published for comment from 27 January 2009 for a month with a final version of the By Law to be presented to full council by the end of March 2009
Muneeb Hendricks
Security Manager
Cape Town Central City Improvement District
Telephone: (021) 419 1881
Fax: (021) 419 0894
Cell: 082 453 2942
http://www.capetownpartnership.co.za
Jan 20th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Hi Kevin again and the group is almost 600 in 8 hours. We all stand together for Change.
Jan 20th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
I reckon this is going to make a lot of people (specially club, bar and tavern owners) very unhappy. And honestly, I think it’s flawed in more ways than one.
Road accidents are caused by irresponsible people. Alcohol is a contributing factor, sure, but if you think past your nose a little, you’ll designate a driver before you go get drunk.
Since accidents are caused by drunk people behind the wheel, and aren’t related to the hours the bar closes, can’t we assume that by imposing an earlier restriction on alcohol trade, all you’ll really be doing is pushing back the hours of road accidents?
Alcohol _sale_ ends at 9pm, but alcohol _consumption_ can continue long past that, and you can get _just_ as drunk by 9.30pm as you could at 11.30pm. And drunk people on the road at 10pm will probably cause more accidents (and more serious accidents) than drunk people on the road at 1am, since not a lot of people are driving around at 1am.
Closing the bars early is just as backwards. Most bars make most of their money during those late night/early morning hours, and a large portion of that goes back to the government as tax – an income stream that you’ll be strangling.
Plus we have tourist season 101 coming up next year. And these tourists won’t stick to the 9-5 we do.
So in a nutshell, you’ll both lose money, as well as place more drunken drivers on the roads at busier times, in all likelihood resulting in more road accidents.
Gotta love the guvvamint.
Jan 20th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
Kevin,
Is it too early to protest against this? I hear we’re allowed to complain in February only?
Jan 20th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
@kevin- Capetonians are by nature late night revellers whereas Gautengers go out early and return early.
Lol when last did you visit joburg?
Jan 20th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Joy-Mari we need to build momentum so we can tell people what they need to do when the time comes. and Feb is round the corner.
The guys behind this want us to be disorganised…
Devon I work in the band industry and in Cape Town the Bands get to the gig on time and the crowd arrives much later & in Joburg The crowd arrive early and the Bands are late. This has always been my experience in my 13 years of Touring and the club business.
Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
You are confusing Bills and Acts and By-Laws.
The Western Cape Liquor Act, 2008 was assented to 25 November 2008. The time have changes made to it is long past. (unless one wants to challenge the Act in a court)
Download the Act here
http://www.capegateway.gov.za/eng/pubs/public_info/O/177007
Section 59 of the Act sets the general maximum trading hours for the sale and consumption of liquor.
See subsection 3 a and b.
========
Trading hours
59. (1) Subject to conditions imposed by the Liquor Licensing Tribunal when granting
a licence or after a meeting in terms of section 20, a licensee may sell liquor on such days
and during such trading hours as the Liquor Licensing Tribunal may determine for
licensed businesses: Provided that the trading hours imposed by the Liquor Licensing
Tribunal may not exceed the hours determined by the municipality by bylaw.
(2) A municipality may by bylaw determine different trading days and hours for
licensed businesses selling liquor for consumption on the licensed premises and for
those selling liquor for consumption off the licensed premises, but may not prescribe
different trading days and hours for individual licensed businesses: Provided that the
trading hours determined by the municipality may not exceed the trading hours set out
in subsection (3)(a) and (b).
(3) (a) Subject to conditions imposed by the Liquor Licensing Tribunal in terms of
subsection (1), if the municipality has not determined the trading days and hours as
provided for in subsection (2), a licensee of premises on which liquor may be sold for
consumption off the licensed premises may sell liquor on any day between 09:00 and
18:00.
(b) Subject to conditions imposed by the Liquor Licensing Tribunal in terms of
subsection (1), if the municipality has not determined the trading days and hours as
provided for in subsection (1), a licensee of premises on which liquor may be sold for
consumption on the licensed premises may sell liquor on any day between 11:00 and
02:00 the next day.
(c) If the licensee has a licence for consumption of liquor both off and on the licensed
premises, paragraph (a) applies in as far as the sale of liquor is for consumption off the
licensed premises and paragraph (b) applies in as far as the sale is for consumption on
the licensed premises.
(4)Alicensee may at any time apply to the Liquor Licensing Tribunal to have his, her
or its trading hours extended to a time later than the trading hours referred to in
subsection (3): Provided that such extended time period imposed by the Liquor
Licensing Tribunal may not exceed 20:00 the same day with regard to subsection (3)(a)
and 04:00 the next day with regard to subsection (3)(b).
(5) The Liquor Licensing Tribunal may not grant an application referred to in
subsection (4) unless it is satisfied on a balance of probabilities that the granting
thereof—
(a) is in the public interest; and
(b) does not prejudice—
(i) the residents of a residential area;
(ii) the residents of an institution for the aged or frail;
(iii) the learners of an educational institution who are under the age of
eighteen (18) years;
(iv) the patients of an institution for drug or alcohol related dependencies; or
(v) the congregants of a religious institution located in the vicinity of the
licensed premises concerned.
(6) The Board must, within the prescribed period after granting or refusing an
application made in terms of subsection (4), notify the applicant of the decision of the
Liquor Licensing Tribunal.
(7) Where the application has been granted, the applicant must pay the prescribed fee
within sixty (60) days of the issuing of the notice contemplated in subsection (6) in as far
as the notice applies to the granting of the application.
(8) Subject to section 89(10), a licensee who sells or supplies, or allows the
consumption of, liquor on the licensed premises at a time when the sale of liquor is not
permitted by the licence, is guilty of an offence.
===========
Subsection 4 states that the hours can (on application) be extended to the maximum mentioned.
Where the proposed Cape Town Municipal By-law comes in: A municipality can by by-law further limit the hours for various type of establishments or areas. (they cannot extend the hours specified by the Province’s Act)
The only thing (regarding trading hours) one can change now (except for court action) is this proposed by-law of the City of Cape Town. Other municipalities within the Western Cape may have their own by-laws.
Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
That’s insane, and once again an attempt to punish normal law abiding tax payers as soft targets.
Drunk driving happens all hours of the day, and people get just as drunk at house parties and braais as they do out in bars and clubs. Putting a time limit will just make people drink more at home – and party harder before the ‘deadline’, which defeats the whole purpose. As for the 9pm restaurant limit, that will totally kill the hospitality industry and hundreds of places will lose business.
Instead they should have more roadblocks in key areas, like Dewaal Drive coming in and out of town – and harsher sentences should be given for drunk drivers.
Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
IIBC, the commuter rail services operated by METRO shut down for the night rather early in the evening, making the ride home after a long night’s drinking spree a bit difficult without alternative options.
Such as “Night Rider” buses on Friday and Saturday nights.
Jan 21st, 2009 at 8:03 am
I think the new law is awesome. Restaurants should probably be allowed till 10 or 11.
I’m thinking of the economic impact this will have. The poorest communities are the hardest hit by alcohol abuse. They waste the little money they have. By restricting access to alcohol you are boosting a very large percentage of our economy.
Do people really need to be drinking at 3am so they can still dance? Perhaps clubs could still stay open but the bars close?
The Mail and guardian recently reported that on average R4000 per taxpayer in South Africa goes towards alcohol abuse. That is a flippin fortune. Many of us don’t even earn enough to pay that much tax.
Lastly as someone who works in the insurance industry, late night drivers who are either drunk or just too tired to drive safely have been highlighted as high risk individuals (based on accident / claim data).
Perhaps those of us that are responsible drinkers who go out late at night can sacrifice some of our freedoms for the greater good of our country.
I understand that these clubs / bars will lose out on some revenue. It is unfortunate, but not nearly as unfortunate/costly as the tragedy of deaths on roads, or families abused or whole communities held back.
This law will help liberate many.
Jan 21st, 2009 at 10:43 am
@Gareth As Rox and I have both pointed out, setting a deadline won’t stop people from getting recklessly drunk.
Setting a deadline won’t curb spending – it’ll simply shift the times. And high-risk individuals will be high-risk individuals even if the government places a total sanction on alcohol sales in SA.
None of this will serve the “greater good” in the country – as a nation, we have yet to figure out what that is.
~ Wogan
Jan 21st, 2009 at 11:17 am
@ Kevin – not picking on you or anything; i’ve just always wondered about these facebook groups petitioning things and trying to save the world… has anything ever come of any of them?
Jan 21st, 2009 at 1:09 pm
I understand that most of the groups amount to very little as the causes are smaller and affect a small group of people. This campagain will affect every who walks into an establishment selling alcohol so it becomes more important.
The group might not directly effect anything to do with this but it has informed people of an impending change that they can oppose. It is just a channel to reach all the like minded people early on and get them ready for some action.
I will remind you of the Story of the man who picked up a Starfish on the beach and put it back in the sea. When it was pointed out that it wasn’t gonna help all the others that were stranded, he said if he changes one starfish’s life he has made a difference. A bit of artistic licence there but you get the picture.
Ciao
Jan 21st, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Kev, ya thats true we come early but we still are out till late. We often only leave clubs at 4. Its changed
Jan 21st, 2009 at 9:42 pm
@Wogan
Yes it won’t stop it. But it makes it less easy and convenient. This is so much bigger than a small group of Capetonians wanting to drink and dance at 4am.
It places much tighter controls on the overall distribution of alcohol. The bigger picture for me is the shabeens. I’ve visited a few and for the most part they are nothing but an embarrassment to our country.
The less people in poverty, the more our country will have to offer as well as a decrease in tax required.
Tax payers should not be fitting the billions of RANDS that go towards alcohol abuse. Sadly this is on a much bigger scale than the night clubs that the kinds of people that are able to post on this blog visit.
Many for whom alcohol is a vice will find alternative means, but others will re-evaluate.
In my opinion the effect of just 1 mother or father saved has a dramatic effect on the community.
There is also the issue of crime. We have many victims in our country that have been targeted in early hours of the morning because they are easy drunk targets.
The new law in its entirety is not a perfect solution but it is a step forward.
Jan 21st, 2009 at 10:09 pm
@Gareth, you have a lot of good points, and in an ideal world this would change things I’m sure.
But realistically it’s not going to have the effect that the government and lobbyists are hoping for. Firstly, it’s going to be almost impossible to enforce, especially in the township areas where the majority of shabeens are found. Just like traffic fines, it’s much easier to target the easy suburbs than try and do shabeen checks and raids in the townships.
This means that the areas most hardest hit by alcohol abuse will most likely carry on illegally – many are not licensed in the first place, and are able to carry on without much interference, so this won’t make much of a difference at all.
Clubs and bars in other areas will be easier targets though, which means we can look forward to police raids and angry crowds – I’ve seen this many a night when the club I used to work for back in the very late 90’s had its liquor license trading hours changed to 3am… it was chaos.
There surely has to be a better solution to deal with alcohol issues, one that confronts the issue properly without penalizing responsible drinkers who don’t drink and drive, or have dependency issues.
Jan 21st, 2009 at 10:10 pm
This is such an interesting discussion, I really hope that we’ll be kept up to date with the whole situation..
Jan 22nd, 2009 at 8:58 am
@Rox
You are correct in what you say. Although I think the law will still help. The law puts pressure on the suppliers of alcohol. It holds the wholesalers accountable. Once enough of them have been caught and fined for illegally supplying unlicensed establishments we will start seeing change. This makes it much tougher for illegal shabeens. It also means that the legal ones can’t be in residential areas… concerned citizens will have more recourse to get residential ones closed down.
Ultimately fewer shabeens (in theory… and I am always an optimist about such things) also allows for easier dispatching of police to problem areas.
Again I’m concerned about the billions of tax payers money that goes towards dealing with alcohol abuse.
Clearly other things should be done. Is it fair on everyone else? No. Is it acceptable? No.
Unfortunately it is not a problem that will solve itself.
Obviously many Shabeens will still operate illegally, but (and here’s the optimist in me again) hopefully a bigger stigma towards illegal shabeens will develop.
Lastly, illegal shabeens will essentially be trading substances that are not legally obtainable. This will no doubt drive up their costs. This means a reduction in the amount of beer etc that a poverty stricken person can buy which equals less drunkenness.
That’s my take on the benefits of this law. (I realize however that laws aren’t magical wands that give people common sense… otherwise the’d be no murder, speeding, drunkenness, corruption etc)
Jan 22nd, 2009 at 2:24 pm
I don’t see why clubs must close at 2, but by all means stop them from selling alcohol at midnight. As for stopping alcohol sales at restaurants at 9, I for one think that’s great. It’s a paltry price to pay for lowering the number of drunk drivers on the road. Who needs alcohol to have fun anyway :)
Jan 22nd, 2009 at 11:55 pm
FlintZA, as you can see what I wrote, I’m totally for reducing the times that alcohol can be sold, I think it’ll be a great thing. However, do you not think 9 is a little early? Reason being, I often book dinner for my girlfriend and I for 20h30, which means we’d arrive and have to quickly have a drink and then there’s no possibility for a second one nor a dessert with alcohol. Now, I am aware of the legal limits and all, 2 light drinks can hold you below. What do you think about 22h00?
Thanks for your comment, glad there are people who will support this :)
Jan 23rd, 2009 at 9:23 am
All I can say is: drink faster! ;)
I do get your point, but how many people out there are going for the light options? Two non-light drinks will push the average person over the legal limit, so I’m all for enforcing ways to keep people to that one drink.
What I don’t get is why clubs can serve to 2am, and restaurants to 9am. At least in a restaurant, people are eating and the alcohol will be ‘diluted’ as a result. In clubs, people carry on for hours, filling their bellies with undiluted booze, and putting themselves at far greater risk.
Jan 23rd, 2009 at 5:51 pm
“Drink faster”, haha!
I hear what you’re saying. Let’s just say you’re not going to be the one driving or you’re taking a taxi, which is getting more and more popular.. :)
I agree with you on the restaurant vs bar thing!
Jan 27th, 2009 at 9:50 am
The origin of this draconian law is a report by a UCT Prof, who looked at the damage done by alcohol in poor communities. He listed an increase in crime, domestic abuse and damage to children, crimes which have an horrific toll on communities.
He then noted a number of examples where licenses had been curtailed and this resulted in a reduction in drinking and therefore the crimes, so far so good.
But the report is limited to the medical consequences, there are a number of economic and ethical issues which have not be considered.
Economically speaking the 20000 unlicensed shebeens employ at least 100000 people. They in turn conservatively support 300000 people.
What will they do? They know no other business, they cannot sell their business and therefore use the capital to start another business. They will adapt and the industry will go under ground. Helen Zille has marched on drug dealers houses with the communities and yet these business are still operational.
These shebeen owners are enterprising small business people who were denied licenses because of apartheid. Now they are denied a right to the livelihoods by a local government which talks right and acts left.
Lets consider history; the prohibition period result in the development of organized crime in the United States. When you criminalize liquor and there is still a demand the market will find way to meet the demand. In meeting this demand we will further entrench organized crime in the city.
We have a thriving tourist industry, people come here to enjoy our beaches and our night life. This attracts small business owners to the industry and in turn creates employment. This sector will also shed jobs. For example, it is highly lightly that when a restaurant stops selling liquor at nine, the restaurant will close with in the hour. This means all the waitrons and kitchen staff and management will not be able to earn salaries and tips. In turn they cannot spend there money and we have a knock on effect.
This sector will also shed jobs, more importantly the uncertainty of get a license coupled with the high capital start up on average over a million rand will deter entrepreneurs from entering this sector. This means even less jobs unless we all start digging ditches for the Helen Zille.
Lets look at the policing, in recent days, the police have raided licensed premises and assaulted patrons. Last year police raided pubs in Stellenbosch, and reportedly sexually assaulted women, assaulted and pepper sprayed people having a drink.
The point, not only do the police act illegally permissive manner tacitly supported by the politicians, but vital and scarce resource have been tied up.
I suggest that instead of trying to regulate the lives of the citizens of Cape Town, basic standards should be established for the operation of bars. Shebeen owners, community members and police should negotiate hours in residential areas. Most owners wwant to make a buck, they don’t like the negative aspects of the business anymore than the average citizen
Small business owners should be given assistance to move to commercial areas. Note rentals are high and controlled by large listed property companies.
Police should be regulated.
Down with the 1984 state
Jan 27th, 2009 at 10:59 am
To Mike Cooper
May I say what an excellent post You have summed up the problems in a very clear way. Now we need this to get to the public forums and relevant email address’s of the departments concerned. If I may I would like to proof read it correct one or two grammatical errors and place it on the Facebook group Discussion board. This is for me the manifesto under which we should fight this bill.
If you are on facebook and can go to the group and join we could chat further. The group is as above “Sa no now to the new liquor bill”
Thanks
Jan 27th, 2009 at 11:06 am
By all means edit it and use it. Please credit me
Be happy to help in any fight against this law
thanks
Mike Cooper
Feb 2nd, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Hi,
Just have to add something here. I work at a Rape Crisis Centre in the Helderberg Basin, Western Cape and since the bill was passed on 25 November 2008 we have had much fewer rapes and this has included periods during the festive season that are normally really busy. So no matter what you want to say, you have to admit that reducing violent crime is a good thing and these laws HAVE ALREADY BEEN REDUCING VIOLENT CRIME and we work closely with the police and the hospitals and their trauma units have seen the same thing – LESS VIOLENT CRIME. So please think carefully about this…yes, it restricts all of us, but the victims of rape that I work with are not sleazy people wandering around at night – they are women attacked in their own beds at night or some other “safe” place, women who look just like your sister, girlfriend, mother, grandmother (yes) and maybe you yourself. Honestly none of them thought they were IN DANGER until they were being attacked and most of the cases – probably 90% – are alcohol related. So yes, you might have to feel a bit restricted to live in a safer country, but I’d say that is totally worth it.
Feb 3rd, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Thank You Lynda.
It should probably also be said that many rape and other victims of abuse remain silent out of fear. So we can only imagine the amazing positive impact this new law has had on the lives of many South Africans.
I happily give up some of my “liberties” to help others. Less violence ultimately equates to a stronger economy.
Feb 3rd, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Agreed, Lynda.
Fewer drinks on a night out is a small price to pay for a lower crime rate. As for jobs, money originally spent on alcohol would flow to other industries resulting in more jobs in those areas.
Feb 3rd, 2009 at 10:27 pm
@Lynda – That’s really interesting! As I’ve said, I’m all for this!
@FlinkZA – Glad we’re on the same level still mate :)
Feb 3rd, 2009 at 10:42 pm
lol… perhaps there needs to be a facebook group for people who support it.
Feb 3rd, 2009 at 10:43 pm
Haha, not a bad point!
Feb 3rd, 2009 at 10:59 pm
aaah, I see my Gavatar is loading now. :)
You know what they say “Evil prevails when good men do nothing”. I hope no-one who is against the law thinks I’m calling them evil. To me the evil is the violence that won’t be reduced if the law is revoked and I want no part of that.
Anyone who knows any abuse victims, will now how powerless and angry you feel on their behalf.
I’m assuming a lot of the people that oppose it are under 30 years of age (could be a wrong assumption) or club owners. Point is that in 20 years you might have a daughter whose boyfriend/husband/close male friend is a time bomb waiting for alcohol.
To me abuse stopped being a statistic when a close friend called me 4am in the morning for help after being raped. And another friend 2 years later. Both were alcohol related. Both were from privileged backgrounds and both were raped after 3am.
Feb 3rd, 2009 at 11:57 pm
I would agree with you on this.. “I’m assuming a lot of the people that oppose it are under 30 years of age”, I would put money on that in fact!
So sorry to hear about your two friends, it’s unfortunate that is takes levels like this for humans to actually realise why these sorts of laws are important and should be enforced!
Feb 4th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
It does suck that we only GET this AFTER someone we know has been a victim of violence or when we are old enough to see reality for what it is. And in my line of work alcohol is scary and it is the reason for most of my middle of the night work.
Feb 4th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Obviously alcohol and social problems go hand in hand, and there are a huge number of alcohol related crimes.
However, without better structures in place such as harsher justice systems, better policing, better government support for social issues, the problem isn’t going to just go away.
Shabeens have operated illegally for years, and bottle stores have been selling cheap booze for years – there is nothing to say that people won’t be able to just get drunk earlier in the day anyway and cause mayhem on the roads and in their communities.
I am very close to 30, and I don’t work in the hospitality industry, and while I may not be out til the early hours all that often, I still don’t know if such a broad bill like this will really achieve the objectives that it aims to meet.
As long as people are not heavily penalised for crimes (from drunk driving to rape, abuse and assault) things are not going to change significantly, and coming down heavily on the tax payers who are not criminals is only going to open up avenues for drug dealers and bootleg booze operators… as for the criminals, they will continue to sell booze all hours, and it is highly unlikely that the police will monitor this at all.
Feb 5th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
All very interesting arguments.
As I see it the ‘drinking’ world falls into two categories: Those that drink responsibly, and those that drink to get drunk.
Whatever time you close the bars and the clubs and the restaurants, those drinkers who drink responsibly will continue to drink responsibly.
Unfortunately the same is also true the other way, regardless of what time you decide to close down a club, those that drink to get drunk will continue to do so.
The only major difference will be that instead of the drunkards exiting clubs and bars at different hours throughout the night, you will have a mass exodus, all at the same time.
I lived in London for four years and what I noticed was that if someone walks into a bar and intends to have two or three pints of beer they will do so whether they walk in at 6pm, 9pm or 5 minutes to closing time.
I often saw Brits put away two or three pints in ten minutes.
All this encourages is a binge-drinking culture. You should walk the streets of London when the bars have shut down – it’s a war zone where thousands of drunks shout and sing their way down the street. It doesn’t make me feel safe.
Now I’m in my late 30’s and I almost never drink alcohol – I don’t even have a car.
I’m a freelancer though, so I work to my own hours – and some nights I like to go out clubbing til late. I can’t remember the last time I walked into a restaurant before 9pm. I normally sit down for dinner around 10 or 11 – and I love that I can do that in CT.
And you know what? So do our tourists. They love that Cape Town functions around the same hours as most of Europe; bands start playing around midnight, you can grab a meal at 3am on Long Street. You can sit in a Jazz club and enjoy a fine cognac while you listen to the live band until 2, 3 in the morning.
As many people above have stated – this will not stop people drinking, it will just get them drinking faster and put them on the streets earlier.
Do you really want to be driving home with your family after an 8 O’clock movie and have to dodge hundreds of drunk drivers on the road?
Learn from the UK, please, don’t repeat their mistakes.
Fix our public transport system. Most people who drive drunk, don’t really want to drive, and they would be very happy to jump in a SAFE bus, or train or taxi.
We need to stick together on this, I do appreciate all the examples given above in favour of this bill, but all this is going to achieve is to make those things happen earlier in the night.
Criminals will always find a way. It’s the normal citizens that always pay the price.
I love Cape Town because of its nightlife, because of the buzz, and because I feel safe walking around at 3am.
Closing bars at 2am will not make me feel safe. It will make me hide in my flat and not want to venture out into the zoo.