Should bloggers watch their mouths?
If this question was asked a year ago, people would have laughed at the person asking the question. However, should someone be asked that question these days, their response would be completely different.
We’ve seen cases were bloggers have been fired from their jobs and there was a case (I can’t find the link) of a blogger who was murdered for expressing his opinion, both of these cases being overseas. Recently, there has been a case, which is taking place locally, involving a blogger by the name of Donn Edwards, who is being sued for an incredible amount for expressing his opinion about a company which scammed him.
Quality Vacation Club (QVC) run a marketing campaign, whereby a telemarketer called Donn up and told him that he had won a car. All he had to do was attend a prize giving event and he could pick up the keys. Long story short, Donn did not win and it would appear that nobody actually won!
Donn’s written a press release, which explains the whole situation and it’s quite clear that he was lured into the whole was falsely and not told at any stage that there was a chance of not winning. I’m pretty sure most of you have received a key in the post telling you that you’ve won a car, the difference here is that it’s on paper and therefore there is some seriously small fine print.
After Donn blogged about the experience, QVC turned around and are suing him for damages to the value of R461,500 (Why that amount?) – I guess they need the money so they can actually give a car away.
I feel sorry for Donn, I’ve read through all of his posts and all of the press releases and it definitely sounds like he’s getting the raw deal. Donn contacted me via email asking me to blog about this and help create more awareness of what is going on and I’m happy to help him out on his venture and hope that justice is served.
This just goes to show that these days, as bloggers, we actually need to be really careful about what we say and about who we flame, because someone might be sitting on the other end, ready to pounce and take advance of us small bloggers.
Good luck Donn!
Christopher is the founder of iMod - Most of his time is spent building websites and pushing the limits with Search Engine Optimization. You can follow him on Twitter @ChristopherM
Chris M has written: 4127 posts.
Dec 4th, 2008 at 12:06 am
I think that showing preemptive sympathy is not a good idea. The case has not been decided. I truly hope that freedom of speech and expressions and the freedom that a lawless internet brings will stand true and Donn wins this case and those guys at end up having to give him a car anyway!
We should not allow scams like this to continue and should inform as many people as we can about them. Donn was one of the fortunate ones, to have realised that he was being scammed. But there are many who end up paying thousands towards these scamsters!!!
Dec 4th, 2008 at 12:29 am
I’ve been hit before:
http://www.geniosity.co.za/musings/personal/a-perfect-con/
And, they phoned again recently. This time I decided to play along with them, and said I would go, with my wife.
Poor lady got VERY upset when I didn’t rock up and I told her why!
I’ve never wanted 1 company ruined more than Telkom, until these thieves called me!
Dec 4th, 2008 at 1:58 am
Funny you should say that! Mine is a political blog – in Zimbabwe! And I just happened to get hold of info nobody else has, related to the army. So I did wat any self-respecting bloger would do and published it. You should see some of the comments being left on my live real-time chatscreen!
What you guys should do is get ALL the bloggers in SA to each do a vitriolic post about this scamming company calling them all sort sorts of names and basically “reporting” this story. They can’t sue all of you – the legal bill would be horrendous and even if they did, you would defend yourselves (no legal bills)and take the position that you are journalists, you were simply reporting on Donn’s story….no judge in SA would convict you!
Dec 4th, 2008 at 5:44 am
LOL @ QVC. Donn should apply for legal aid. However in this country, to qualify for legal aid, you need to earn less than R2000 per month. Duh. How can anyone live on less than that?
What we need is some kind of cheap legal service for bloggers.
Dec 4th, 2008 at 6:44 am
I’ve been phoned by these scamsters quite a few times, but always put them off.
The fact that there are 129 entries on HelloPeter already raises alot of alarms.
Good Luck Donn ! It seems like these guys are tough cookies and very arrogant whilst reading through some HelloPeter comments as well.
Dec 4th, 2008 at 8:01 am
At what point does free speech become defamation? None of us ever thinks about the word defamation because few of us are malicious enough to want to harm someone’s reputation just for the fun of it.
For a company it’s a bit different: they spend money on marketing, and want a positive response. They hope for and expect sales by buying advertising.
So what does a company do when someone complains? If they fob off the complaint, sometimes it works, but the matter never gets resolved. It festers and grows and eventually becomes an issue. At that point they either deal with it or try to blame someone else.
I think QVC is trying to blame me because of the stream of complaints logged on my site (not to mention others). But by suing me and having the case resolved sometime in 2010 they are not addressing the festering sore, they’re punishing a band aid that is no longer helping.
The can’t sue the Sunday World newspaper, or SABC2, nor 702 or the Sunday Independent, because their lawyers know how to deal with these things. So they try scaring the little guy: me. How that’s supposed to boost their image as a family-friendly holiday destination for budget-conscious individuals, I’m not entirely sure.
Dec 4th, 2008 at 8:18 am
How outrageous.
Dec 4th, 2008 at 8:28 am
This sets a very ugly precedent, and should be nipped in the bud asap.
I completely agree with @Denford…SA bloggers should blog about this in their masses. Not only will it show QVC what they are up against (and ruin their online rep even more) but it will also deter other companies who might feel like throwing their money to squash independent opinion.
I’ve blogged about it already, and I will continue to follow the case closely. Goog luck, Donn and let us know how we can be of any help…
Dec 4th, 2008 at 8:36 am
@Donn: Timeshare salespeople are a bunch of punks. QVC is actually going to make the whole of SA tell them to go fuck themselves. No more timeshare industry in SA, due to rampant unchecked abuse by a bunch of fucking assholes.
If the Timeshare industry wants to preserve their niche, they should punch those little punks down before they ruin it for everyone.
Dec 4th, 2008 at 9:49 am
This is insane, they called me up too last year sometime. To which I told them to go away as I was busy. They have no legs to stand on. Its all fact! thats what they do, they lure people into believing that they have won. And they havent. In honesty I hope they get counter sued. And Donn gets a lot more back. What a crock.Going to start a facebook group!
Dec 4th, 2008 at 9:55 am
QVC are already looking worse and worse – and the most ironic thing is that the very medium they are trying to control, blogging, is now using their ‘viral power’ to spread the word even further.
Freedom of speech walks a fine line, but there is a huge difference between reporting something dodgy that’s happened to you to warn and protect others, to stuff like obvious hate speech and spreading blatant garbage or lies about people or companies.
I think the blogging community should sue QVC for threatening our rights to free speech and wasting our time with their spammy practices. :-)
Dec 4th, 2008 at 9:57 am
@Rox: I reckon we just feed them to the Roxilla. Haha. :)
Dec 4th, 2008 at 9:59 am
@Richard, bwhahahaha!
Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:00 am
Hi
I have also blogged about this at http://walterpike.com/2008/12/learning-the-hard-way-bloggers-court-case/
Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:05 am
Oi Walter, you trying to hijack my thread? ;)
Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:13 am
Thanks for the link Walter – I think the more blog exposure this gets, the better.
And it’s not hijacking Chris, it’s spreading the word. ;-)
Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:13 am
I heard that John Robbie was saying this morning that he has been issued with legal papers after his Donn interview. He also had the DTI on air to discuss the matter, and apparently they weren’t too favourable re QVC. I didn’t hear the interview myself, so this is coming from a third party. Does anyone have more news on it?
Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Dont be silly – why would I try do that? just adding my 2 cents worth.
If you think I am hi jacking your thread – and its not of benefit to the cause please delete my comment.
Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:18 am
I was only kidding @Walter & @Rox.. easy now :)
Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:19 am
@Eve: Oh, I wouldn’t want to mess with John Robbie!
By the time the SA public is done with QVC, they won’t be able to pick a shiny nickel off a sidewalk without being arrested.
Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Don’t forget to link to Donn Edwards’ site with the anchor text of “QVC” or “Quality Vacation Club”. If everybody who’s left a comment here writes a post and links out properly, hopefully we can get him to the top of Google :-)
Of course, it will probably take a few more than 10 people linking to him.
Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:24 am
@James: You’re looking to create a Google bomb to honour QVC?
How about this as anchor text:
Kakkest South African company
??
Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:40 am
@James – Great idea, I’ll update the post now :)
Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Hi Donn
I am trying to reach you urgently. Want to do a follow-up article about the lawsuit and your blogging dilemma. Could you please contact me urgently if you see this.
Thanks
(021) 406 2996
Anri Cronje, Rapport, Cape Town
Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Here starts the real media craze! Nice one Anri, I will alert Donn to this for you :)
Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:55 am
Does anybody here remember the case of SAMaleProstitute and Patricia de Lille who suggested legislation to censor bloggers?
Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:57 am
@Johan – This one.. click me ?
Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:59 am
The very one. I think there’s some interesting parallels with this case – only here the blogger hasn’t really done anything wrong.
Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:05 am
The cheek! As it is I don’t trust timeshare companies. Is dream vacations part of this group? Cos they are one dodge company.
Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:06 am
That was a lot more on the defamation side than freedom of speech, and public interest though.
But interesting article indeed – and even there, with a much more obvious possible libel and defamation, it seems that bloggers do have a certain amount of rights.
Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:07 am
Chris, did you ever read my wrap up article to the SA male prostitute saga?
Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Rox – Definitely. I don’t think anybody should be sued for speaking the truth anyway. The problem with SAMaleProstitute was that there wasn’t actually a way to verify whether his stories had some degree of validity to it or not.
In Donn’s case it seems very obvious who is lying. No judge worth his salt will rule in the timeshare company’s favour.
At least, I hope so…
Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Link to John Robbie saga:
http://bit.ly/ix6F
(Scroll down a bit)
Dec 4th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Those guys at QVC are as bad as the Scientologists.
Dec 4th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
You guys are awesome! QVC is suing me bcause my blog appears on the first page of google.co.za results. The irony is that this link rating has more to do with my “Great Defrag Shootout” articles than any other reason.
The traffic from SA has been negligible compared with the overall traffic, until they started their lawsuit.
Their timing was bad too: it’s the start of the news cycle’s silly season, when there is less hard news and more pages to fill.
I didn’t plan any of this. I didn’t plan on being duped by their first call, or being outraged by their second call, or being snubbed by their smug lawyers. They decide the timing, and I respond in my own off-the-wall way.
When a story gets a life of its own, and when so many people have been pissed off by timeshare calls in the past, they surely can’t expect the whole world to shut up?
Dec 4th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Sued for ranking in Google? No ways, lol!
It’ll continue to rise as well once all the posts today are crawled by Google, so expect a few more jumps in the SERPs :)
Keep us updated here please Donn, I’d like to know what comes of all of this..
Dec 4th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
I’ve put together a wiki with all the links to this case. Please let me know what is missing.
http://QVCsaga.pbwiki.com
Dec 4th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Wow! This is downright disgraceful. They’ve wronged him, he writes about it, and is now getting sued? What judge is actually going to hear this argument?
Dec 4th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
That’s what I was wondering..
Dec 4th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
I’m no SEO expert, but maybe a Squidoo lens would help a bit more?
Dec 4th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Hahhahahahha, classic Stii, well yes it would help provided you have dofollows and not rel-nofollow :)
Dec 9th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
Hi guys
Please note that if you want to do something practical to show Donn support, why not join the FB group I created. Then invite all your friends 2 aswell.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?success=1&id=609288177#/group.php?gid=47897759702&ref=ts
It’s already 173 strong :-)
Dec 10th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Have joined the BF group, and going to invite everyone!
Dec 10th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
Good on you guys, the more that know, the better :)
@Donn – an update please?
Dec 11th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Updates happen VERY infrequently in lawsuits. Some guy asked me to create a Twitter feed! It’s going to be a very boring feed.
I only have to file a plea in mid January, and then some to-ing and fro-ing happens and eventually a court date gets set for sometime in 2010 whenever.
I am defending two cases: the main case of defamation for R461 500, plus a case of contempt of court where they want me to go to jail for 6 months.
This case is particularly weak, since in the 28 hours between the order being served and the contempt notice being served, I published nothing on my blog, defamatory or otherwise.
In the meantime I have made another offer to settle, which seems to have been ignored. I asked for a meeting, which they have consistently declined.
The 702 interviews have been most helpful, especially the last one with the guy from the DTI. Listen on http://jeremynell.com/2008/12/qvc-versus-donn-edwards/
After 702 inteviewed me on Monday 1st December my blog traffic immediately doubled, and stayed high most of the week.
The facebook group is now at 220 members.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=47897759702
I am wasting too much time on the case. Yesterday I managed only a few hours of productive work, and the same for Monday and Tuesday. I guess I’d better get back to work now. I’ve already missed a few deadlines. $%-)
Donn
Dec 11th, 2008 at 11:42 am
@Eve
Your efforts have been awesome!
Thanks to everyone for the support. I am truly strengthened by all the good vibes coming from the mother city.
Dec 11th, 2008 at 11:45 am
@Donn – Has all this publicity helped in any way though?
Dec 11th, 2008 at 11:49 am
@Donn: You have my support. I think you have a great blog. Your information about drive defragmentation is an awesome primer for anyone looking for help.
Bloggers I feel do serve as watchdogs on poor business practices and businesses better beware that if they do evil, their misdeeds will very likely be published online throughout an increasingly trafficked Blogosphere.
As long as our comments are fair and accurately reflect the truth, we should be fearless in exposing the bad apples.
I think what the SA blogosphere needs to do is establish a legal assistance fund to help us fight our legal battles in future.
Dec 11th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
I did a quick search of QVC on Google SA and saw that HelloPeter and other complaints are dominating the first page. Over 100 complaints on HelloPeter! If you have over 100 complaints on HelloPeter, and you aren’t Telkom, there is something seriously wrong with your business.
Why hasn’t QVC swung their strong arm on Peter?
Dec 11th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
You point re creating a legal fund – is actually a pretty good idea.
Dec 11th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
We should actually do more than simply blog about it. There should be real life protests, urine-filled balloons, placards etc
Dec 11th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
@Walter Pike: I just called LegalWise’s Customer Care number in JHB – 011 470 4000 – and discussed this with a CSR who gave me some useful answers.
1. LegalWise covers people on an individual basis from as little as R48 per month. They also have a R70 per month subscription which gives you more cover.
2. All pre-existing cases are excluded, so Donn would not be able to subscribe now and use their services to defend himself.
What Donn could have done is subscribe before he published an article that could present him with legal problems and then he would have been able to use them to defend his case.
So essentially any blogger can opt in to LegalWise’s services if they feel that they might be at risk of needing legal services.
This is probably a good option for most bloggers and the entry level subscription of R48 per month is not onerous.
However, it could be that some bloggers cannot afford even that small fee. What could work for LegalWise, the blogger, and for a company is a sponsorship deal where the blogger has his or her LegalWise monthly subscription sponsored by a company in exchange for displaying on his or her blog a button publishing the fact that this blog is covered by LegalWise, sponsored by X company.
Now all we need to do is find a suitable company to sponsor those LegalWise subscriptions.
Dec 11th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
LOL. LegalWise? Surely you are trolling again? :)
QVC is guaranteed to have top quality lawyers given their business model. Also, LegalWise only covers up to a MAX of R85,000 of legal expenses. QVC and other large companies often draw out the case as long and as expensively as possible in order to intimidate or bankrupt the other party.
There is a reason why all of the “Think Wise I’m LegalWise” bumper stickers you find are on old rusted and unroadworthy cars… You get what you pay for.
Dec 11th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
@Russell: Well, I have no answer to that, Russell.
I think it’s a starting point at least and offers a measure of assistance. I’m sure Donn would find it invaluable if he were able to get legal advice from them. I think he received some assistance from Absa’s legal service, though.
Dec 11th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
Feedback: I posted a long explanation of what has been happening, but it went into thin air. Sorry guys!
FWIW, I think you’ll find LegalWize has an exclusion for defamation, unless you were defamed by someone else. FNB’s Law on Call excludes it. Even so, they were helpful in explaining a bit about the legal process.
QVC’s lawyers are experienced, but they have made some very dumb mistakes, such as not serving the interim court order for 4 weeks, and then waiting just 28 hours to file the contempt motion (during which time I didn’t publish anything).
The publicity has been EXTREMELY helpful: two lawyers have come forward to help, and much sane and useful advice has been offered. I still need to digest it all.
The series of interviews on 702 were also most useful, and I’m sure QVC can’t be too happy about them.
The publicity and blog entries have also helped to make companies aware that they cannot ignore their customers.
My biggest problem at present is to shut up and not give QVC any clues about my next move(s). Not that I think they’re listening, but you never know.
Dec 11th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Click on the link in my name for the Legalwise policy document, and scroll down to their exclusions section 35.
They won’t institute proceedings if someone defames you, so I’m pretty sure the reverse is not covered. The last exclusion clause is the most interesting: if they can settle they will. It doesn’t say whether they have to settle in your favour. It’s a good escape clause, if nothing else.
Dec 11th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
@Donn Edwards: “a long explanation …thin air”
Lame. This is important stuff and we wanna hear it! Please type your comments into a text editor and save locally before committing them to the ether in future. :)
two lawyers have come forward to help
That’s great news! Have they agreed to take your case on pro bono?
If not, then I’ll make the following suggestion: go and start calling law firms and ask to speak to one of the partners and ask them whether they will take on your high publicity case pro bono. In exchange you will name drop their firm (and the names of senior counsel they instruct) every time you are interviewed and on your blog.
When the media (and other bloggers) report on your case, your legal firm will also be mentioned.
“Not that I think they’re listening”
Oh, I’m sure they’re hanging on your every word. I hope they’re looking very closely:
*holds up middle finger*
Dec 11th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
@Donn: “They won’t institute proceedings if someone defames you, so I’m pretty sure the reverse is not covered.”
You need to check that. Logically, I believe that it makes more sense that you are covered, because the chief reason people buy their product is for help when they are being legally attacked. Take that away, and you’re paying 48 bucks per month for sweet fanny fuck all.
Dec 11th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
@Richard: people buy their product is for help when they are being legally attacked
This is generally true, and I have considered the service before, hence my use of the FNB Law on Call service.
The problem with defamation is that if they support either side they’re screwed. If you thought you could just insult people people and get away with it, they’d be screwed. If you rushed to the courts every time you got insulted, the same applies. It’s a legal landmine, either way.
Legal insurance is like any other insurance: it covers stuff you are likely to encounter; not the weird stuff, or messy divorces, or business problems.
The lawyers have agreed to help, pro bono, and one in particular is fed up with timeshare in general. I think it is unfair to expect them to represent me though, so I’m doing most of the leg work and they will read through what I have written and fix it.
There is a law student at Rhodes who is helping too. She has sent me useful stuff, and I have found other interesting stuff at http://www.saflii.org/
which as a lot of the reported cases online.
Dec 11th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
@Donn: “If you thought you could just insult people and get away with it”
Really? You can’t? I try to do it everyday. So far so good. ;o
“messy divorces”
They don’t cover divorces, messy or clean, or anywhere in between.
Dec 11th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Wooooah, things are getting hectic in here, wow!
@Donn – Thanks so much for the update, it’s fantastic to hear that the publicity is leading to good things. I’m especially happy to hear that 2 people have come forward to help you, we’re all on your side, keep pushing mate!
@Richard – I’m going to moderate some of your comments mate, it’s important for this thread to remain tip top :)
Dec 11th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
@Donn – I would suggest keeping your next move offline and out of the public domain. It just helps you maintain posture in your defense.
I’m really glad that those 2 law firms have stepped. Please let us know who they are, cos some good ‘ol link love from just about every blogger in SA has your back with this!
Keep your head up mate!
Dec 11th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
@Richard Catto “Really? You can’t? I try to do it (defamation) everyday. So far so good. ;o”
Uh, Richard… Didn’t you recently get yourself beaten into a near coma after you attacked some racists online and they found out where you lived and gave you a tune-up?
Dec 11th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
@Victor: They claimed that, yes. It never happened, even though they did publish my correct address on their miserable little racist blog.
I’ve also noticed that someone has taken to impersonating me on the same blog by posting a bunch of crap they hope will be attributed to me. So be careful what you believe to be my writings online these days.